---
title: "Syndicating Whuffie"
date: 2003-07-02T12:55:12-04:00
url: https://blog.lmorchard.com/2003/07/02/syndicated-whuffie/
author: Les Orchard
---

# Syndicating Whuffie

<blockquote cite="http://www.teledyn.com/mt/archives/001055.html">
... there's excellent knowledge in blogs if only we had the tools to extract it. 
<br /><br />
What sort of tools?  Relevance and reputation based feeds and
aggregators for one.  The problem of quickly finding what's good from
among the great muck of the blogosphere is, if you ask me, a far more
urgent problem than seeing the correct authorship or harmonizing
dc:date and pubDate before I even read the thing.
<br /><br />
... facilitate P2P trading of <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/RSS">RSS</a> from desktop to desktop as well as
server to desktop -- you subscribe to 1000 feeds, aggregate them, rate
them (explicitly or by statistical filtering based on past use
patterns) and then rebroadcast your new rated feed.  Aggregators could
then /use/ redundant items from feedback loops because each <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/RSS">RSS</a> source
has a reputation rating that weights the contained individual item
ranking; repeated items add their rankings.
</blockquote>
<div class="credit" align="right"><small>Source:<cite><a href="http://www.teledyn.com/mt/archives/001055.html">TeledyN: Echos of <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/RSS">RSS</a></a></cite></small></div>
<br /><br />
Yes.  This is it.  This is what I want to see come next from aggregators
and blogs and syndication and all this mess.  It's what I've been tinkering
with in small steps for most of a year.  It's what I intend <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/BookmarkBlogger">BookmarkBlogger</a>
to facilitate, as well as <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/AmphetaOutlines">AmphetaOutlines</a> and the homebrew aggregator I'm
hacking around with right now.
<br /><br />
At first thought, I'm not sure whether or not building and
republishing <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/RSS">RSS</a> (or Echo) feeds is where it's at.  But, the more I think
about it, the more it seems perfectly elegant to me.  All the elements are
there, except for an extension to capture ratings.  Extend aggregators to
consume these rating-enriched feeds, and instead of just spooling the items
up into your view, extract and assimilate the ratings into a growing
matrix of rater versus rated.  Apply all the various algorithms to
correlate your rating history with that of others to whose ratings you
subscribe.  Mix in a little Bayes along with other machine learning.
<br /><br />
As for the interface... well, that's a toughie.  At present, I think I could
sneak ratings into my daily routine by monitoring my <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/BookmarkBlogger">BookmarkBlogger</a> use and
watching the disclosure triangle clicks and link visits in my <a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/view/Main/AmphetaOutlines">AmphetaOutlines</a>
based news aggregator.  I could easily see adding an iTunes-like 5-star
rating interface, but unless I get some pretty significant payoff from
painstakingly rating things, I'll never use it.  At least in iTunes, I get
to have playlists of my faves automatically jumbled together, if I remember
to use the ratings in the moment. 
<br /><br />
The cool thing will be when sites like
<a href="http://www.technorati.com" target="_top">Technorati</a> and <a href="http://www.feedster.com" target="_top">Feedster</a> start
using these ratings, but the even cooler thing is when all that's on
my desktop.  This could be easy, though, couldn't it?  What do we call
it, Syndicated Whuffie?
<br /><br />
(Which reminds me:  Eventually, we really gotta get back to the subscription
problem.  All these agents polling files everywhere will get to be nasty.
Obviously.  This has been talked about already, but little has happened.
We need some <span style='background : #FFFFCE;'><a href="http://www.decafbad.com/twiki/bin/edit/Main/PubSub?topicparent=Main.FilterData"><b>?</b></a><font color="#0000FF">PubSub</font></span>, maybe some caches and concentrators.  All stuff that's
been mentioned in passing before, and left by the wayside as unsexy.)
<!--more-->
shortname=syndicated_whuffie

<div id="comments" class="comments archived-comments">
            <h3>Archived Comments</h3>
            
        <ul class="comments">
            
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086969">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.holgerarendt.de/weblog"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=7bffb41c7b3bc1560dff8e9dcefaf931&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.holgerarendt.de/weblog">holger</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086969" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-02T13:29:44">2003-07-02T13:29:44</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">You might want to take a look at parss: http://weblogs.at/parss</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086971">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://mac.against.org/space"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=fd54edc39361f4c9e875cc73904664c4&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://mac.against.org/space">Rui Carmo</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086971" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-02T13:31:09">2003-07-02T13:31:09</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">Something else that keeps cropping up and being left by the wayside  a lot these days: Bayesian Filtering for RSS feeds. ;)</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086972">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://mac.against.org/space"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=fd54edc39361f4c9e875cc73904664c4&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://mac.against.org/space">Rui Carmo</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086972" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-02T13:31:25">2003-07-02T13:31:25</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">Something else that keeps cropping up and being left by the wayside  a lot these days: Bayesian Filtering for RSS feeds. ;)</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086973">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://trikuare.cx/"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=0a5b2c20fe4587a2b0abc3738c953e53&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://trikuare.cx/">magenta</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086973" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-02T15:25:47">2003-07-02T15:25:47</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">I've been pontificating about this stuff on and off on my own weblog lately... nice to know that others are thinking about it too. :)</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086974">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.ecademy.com"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=4ca7f18e6a976271f93b665a6a84cec4&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.ecademy.com">Julian Bond</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086974" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-03T06:57:25">2003-07-03T06:57:25</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">The best rating systems are the ones that are a side effect of "normal" behaviour. Maybe you should just give a +1 to any item and/or feed that you click through in the aggregator to view in the parent website. this is much more likely to generate meaningful metadata than relying on human  rating. 

Re. Republishing feeds, I already republish RSS for the composite topics on Ecademy. eg 
WiFi weblogs = 
http://wifi.ecademy.com/module.php?mod=import&op=rssbundle&id=14

Interestingly, I read the feed into a database cleaning it up in the process. The re-published feed is read out of the database so the items are not necessarily what went in.</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086975">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=5a70d939a73fa73603f2a9255ab81d21&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki">BillSeitz</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086975" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-03T11:34:30">2003-07-03T11:34:30</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">I'm with Julian. I don't see a huge value here over (a) using a BlogRoll as rating for sites/channels, and (b) individual links as rating for specific items (not good/bad, but worth of comment, which seems more important for this context).</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086976">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=5a70d939a73fa73603f2a9255ab81d21&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://webseitz.fluxent.com/wiki">BillSeitz</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086976" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-03T11:34:45">2003-07-03T11:34:45</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">I'm with Julian. I don't see a huge value here over (a) using a BlogRoll as rating for sites/channels, and (b) individual links as rating for specific items (not good/bad, but worth of comment, which seems more important for this context).</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086977">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://dannyayers.com"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=ac0d01ebb5e438c029c0764064f70827&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://dannyayers.com">Danny</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086977" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-04T05:09:50">2003-07-04T05:09:50</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">I think this is very important stuff. 

re. ratings systems - a mix of implicit (comments, links) and explicit (rate this!) is probably what's needed. There are also a lot of possibilities for personal knowledge bases, which could also help in the filtering processes.

re. republishing - yep, there's a lot more we can do here : read feed, *process*, republish

re. P2P - I don't think there's even a mark on the surface yet...

(of course I'm playing with all of these in IdeaGraph ;-)</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086979">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.srijith.net/trinetre"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=71daea6c5696489ec1f7dd8efa55e2f2&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.srijith.net/trinetre">Srijith</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086979" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-04T05:15:28">2003-07-04T05:15:28</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">I too have been working on something similar. I call it Intelli-Aggie (name subject to change!). It is what I would call a "content sensitive" RSS aggregator. Instead of learning from your friends's recommendations etc, the system tries to learn from your reading habits, your preferences and interests etc.

Just before I came across this entry, I had justed posted an example of the generated news pages. If you are interested, do take a look at 
http://www.srijith.net/trinetre/archives/2003/07/04/index.shtml#000290

The initial thoughts are scribbled at 
http://www.srijith.net/trinetre/archives/2003/05/12/index.shtml#000230</div>
            
        </li>
    
        <li class="comment" id="comment-221086981">
            <div class="meta">
                <div class="author">
                    <a class="avatar image" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.newsmonster.org"><img src="http://www.gravatar.com/avatar.php?gravatar_id=10606a6d767b499af483bbaa390d7771&amp;size=32&amp;default=http://mediacdn.disqus.com/1320279820/images/noavatar32.png"/></a>
                    <a class="avatar name" rel="nofollow" 
                       href="http://www.newsmonster.org">Kevin Burton</a>
                </div>
                <a href="#comment-221086981" class="permalink"><time datetime="2003-07-05T04:27:05">2003-07-05T04:27:05</time></a>
            </div>
            <div class="content">This is the primary goal of the NewsMonster project actually.  

The biggest problem right now is getting past Metcalfe's law.  All the code is done including the trust metric and the implicit/explicit certification data (ratings) but we don't have enough active users.

We are working on leveraging the full trust network via a more expansive transitive trust algoritm but it will be a week or so before I can get that code in and I want to ship 1.0 by monday.

The biggest problem right now is that the project has very lofty goals.  Most of our users are worried about more daily issue where I want to focus on the reputation components. 

It is all good though.  It will happen soon enough.</div>
            
        </li>
    
        </ul>
    
        </div>
